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Hey everyone.
I remember Bryan talking a lot about his past and some of his audio setups in his cars and stuff, and I was wondering if Bryan or anyone else for that fact would be able to help me out.
My questions lie mostly in the power realm of car audio and the box building aspects, I don’t know as much as I should with my plans for the future.So my problem is, I’m going to be running a 10000 watt amp to power 2 18″ subs, but I don’t know what amperage alternator I would need to power the thing fully. It’s 10000 watts RMS at 2 ohms, and from what i know now, it’s wattage/voltage = amps/ So on a normal ~12.8-13.1 system, thats about 750 amps, which kinda seems ridiculous. Also would i need to add another couple batteries to power it or how does that work?
I’ll just leave this here as I look around some more, I just like getting familiar people’s opinions first, rather than some bloke on the internet
Thank you all in advance
Yeah, there is a lot to be said here…
First, tell me what amp you are getting that is 10,000 watts. Specifically what make/model. Not that I don’t doubt it’s a powerful amp, but 10k is a seriously gigantic claim, and knowing an amps real power needs will dictate what your charging system needs to be doing. I know that Kicker, Earthquake and even HiFonics have claims up there in that range, but I’d want to see a real spec sheet for this. And 18″ subs? Are you sure? Have you listened to them on a variety of music before coming to this conclusion? I’d be interested in knowing what made you decide to go “slow-n-low”. I assume you have a equally huge setup planned for the higher frequency range?
That said, 750 amps is not at all accurate. Your stock one is likely somewhere between 85amps and 120amps depending on the car. A seriously huge current draw may get you to a place where you need to look at a 150-170amp alternator, but it’s not common for people to jump up to the 200 range, though I’ve been a part of installs like that. Yes, for a big sound system, it’s advisable to run a second battery, I doubt you’d need an array of them (though if you wanted to run longer with the car ‘off’, you could go with 2 in series). You’d need a battery isolator to charge two batteries with one alternator. Consider dry cell batteries for this secondary duty. You’ll also need a .5 farad or higher capacitor… I’d look at 1 farad for this giant draw you are looking into.
The kicker warhorse is the amp I have my eyes on, I’ve got the money saved up for it and it’s one of the better deals I’ve found. I thought about 2 2500 watt Rockford amps, but they’d run about 2500-3000.
My first car I had 2 pioneer 10’s in it, and they just didn’t do much for me, sure they were loud but they dropped off in the low notes more than i wanted them to. I got a new setup with a Kicker 15″ Solo Baric, with 1500 watts, and it’s getting better, but I wanna go big for my new setup. Lots of the rap and some electronic stuff I listen to pushes 45hz or lower. I can always just up the setup to 15″, lots of possibilities. Would it close the low-mid gap much if I went with 15’s? I’ve got a new setup for door panels that would be coming after the Bass install. I have a lot of time to decide so I’m going to do as much research as I can.
I downloaded the warhorse manual and they suggest 7 12volt batteries and 2 200 amp alternators to power the amp to the max.
Okay, that actually tells me quite a bit. Most of the time when people just ask about big power, with no details they are looking at some bargain junk amp that claims to be huge power, and in face is a metal box of air. That said, car audio has changed a lot in the last few decades, and power ratings and needs have changed to suit cheaper builds, and easier marketing. It sucks, but it’s a fact. They are all kinda like that now… even Kicker.
What’s interesting, is that this is one of those “see what we can do?” kinda amps where they throw their current model to the side and flex whatever muscle they have. In the vein of hardcore overkill like the Frankampenstein, this thing is a crazy ass beast. I just spent some time reading up on it, and I have to say that everyone is going to hate you, and you probably will hear nothing else but your subs unless you are seriously building up the rest of your system. In fact, you are doing to spend so much money trying to make the power aspect of your system work, that unless you are going to throw an array of subs at it for SPL… your likely to get into a “what’s the point” situation real quick. So what subs are you going to point this at?
Now here is the part where I try to talk you down off of the ledge… a LOT. Is that thing a monster with monster output? Definitely. Will it kill subs? Yes, you may actually rupture the space time continuum if you can keep from rattling your car in half. Is it what you need to make your goal? Hell no.
Above, you told me that you drove a Chevy Cavalier (your 10s), then you bought a base-model Mustang and put an exhaust on it. Now you are telling me that you need a McClaren F1 to drive to work and back… so what city should you move to so that the roads will be good enough for you to drive at top speed. Seriously, that’s not far off the mark.
Have you explored the stuff in between? I mean, the Solobaric is a good sub, but it’s not a great sub. There is a lot you can do (and it sounds like you already have the cash set aside) that is much more sensible for big sound, and not destroying your car’s electrical system and suspension to get there (batteries are quite heavy).
Is your goal lower, or louder? Of course it’s both, but is it one above the other? Sounds like you are looking for lower only based on current performance, but louder is more likely your actual direction… am I off?
Well, you can definitely go crazy, and get two giant power handling monster 18″ subs, like CW Strokers or whatever the kids are buying these days, but you an likely get more bass than you can handle listening to while driving, which much less $$ and much less effort. Go with 4 12″ subs that are known for their low end response, like JL W6 or JL W7s… or any of the “big subs” known for their low end response. Get them all Dual Voice coil, bridge 4 smaller amps down to 2ohms, or do 2ohm voice coils and series then bridge them to 2ohms and do one large amp per pair. –point is, there are a jillion possibilities to make painful sound, that don’t equal speakers that aren’t very musical, and amps that cost more than a whole system should. The power part of the equation is just the insanity that should have you run away screaming.
If I wanted to get painful? A 4-pack of JL 12W7s, and I’d throw about 500W to 700W at each pair. It would be totally insane. I’d go farther with a lot of other components up front, but the main point is, I wouldn’t have to change my alternator or put more than 1 extra battery in.
Just my 0.02, but to answer your original question… it looks like Kicker gave you your real answer.
First off, I’d like to thank you for being so helpful, Bryan.
Yeah, my goal is to be loud. The reason I chose the warhorse is it’s price per watt at the moment. It’s being sold for 1500-2300, depending where you look. It’s also nice because you can use the dial on the amplifier to reduce the % of the RMS it puts out, so it could be paired with a lower power speaker.
I did look through some other stuff, my initial plan was going with 1 Rockford 2500 1bd, run to 2 15″ or 18″. FI Audio Subwoofers
Now, you said i could get a lot more with 4 12″, is that just because there are more speakers? How would I know what’s going to be louder? It’s depending on box tuning and stuff like that right? And I’d think 2 18″s would be louder than 2 12″s at like 40 hz, am I right or wrong in thinking that?
The stuff you’ve been telling me has been great. I’d rather get all the info I can before I buy anything to get started.
Well, it’s hard to speak in both specifics and generalities while attempting to give good, useable advice. While I do know that music that includes a 40Hz note in it has become more common (again) to work a system like this, it still seems odd to build a non-competition music solely for that range. Let’s start with a few simple rules, this may help you understand more of what you read, and the advice you are given.
All other things being equal (and we’ll get into why they aren’t in a few minutes), these rules are pretty well constants.
Sound is the movement of air. The more air you move, the more sound potential you have. So, generally, more speaker surface area = more sound potential. Meaning, while 2 15″ subs have more sound potential than 2 12″ subs, 3 12″ subs have more sound potential than the two 15″ subs. The same is similarly true of 18″ in relation to smaller speakers, where multiple 12’s (4 in the case of my comparison above) have more surface area than two 18″ subs.
Power (in this case measured in watts) for subs, equals subwoofer motor control. The end result is volume (sound), but this is not the direct relationship. Sub control will most often allow for play at higher volume, but it’s control over the sub’s motor that equals play at high volume with high output. A lower powered sub cannot reproduce frequencies as quickly or as accurately as the same sub at higher power. This become more apparent at higher volume levels, and a more important factor at well-powered, but different power levels. Given a sub with an RMS power-handling level of 250 watts, you can make these speakers plenty loud (for most) with 100 watts of power RMS. You can likely even get near full output of this speaker at 150 to 180 watts of RMS output. –But often when multiple notes are present in this driver’s frequency range, the higher speaker will sound ‘louder’ and will be capable of higher output levels, not necessarily because of the wattage producing more sound, but because the less controlled sub is putting out a less accurate note reproduction, and then is compounded by overlapping sounds that have to be reproduced, as well as sounds before and ofter our example sound. The result is a slightly less clean reproduction that results immediately in lower overall output (in terms of volume), but often results in lower output because it doesn’t sound as good, and is not played as loud by the operator.
The confusing thing is, overdriving a sub with more power is not really a proven solution, it can result in less efficiency again as you get outside of the sub’s capabilities and it’s an opportunity for breakage.
Remember, your speakers are where the sound comes from. The BEST way to do this, is to start with your speakers. You are actually doing this backwards, because you found some characteristics that you like, sold yourself on the solution, and are trying to make it work well in your application. You’ll underdrive the amp, likely overdrive your speakers, and we know from the start of this thread that without crazy beefing up, you’ll overdrive your car’s electrical system.
This is a good time to know what car this is going in by the way.
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But all things are NOT equal.So, a very good way to go about this is to start with speakers. 18s, 15s, 12s… I’ve seen (and used to own) a pair of 10s that would put out 142dB on what you would consider low power. On 150 watts per speaker, I could be heard 10-12 houses down, could set off alarms with damn near any kind of music, and did it with a stock charging system, no extra battery and no capacitor. I’ve done similar with 1 15″ in the same car, but lacked the playability that the 10s had. The 10s kicked major ass in my house by the way.
Okay, enough about me. So, more surface area equates to more sound potential… so more speakers, more volume. Okay, now let’s look at those low notes. Different speakers have very different characteristics. They aren’t “better” because they handle more power, they are better when they are matched to correct power, and correct application. As you get into higher power ranges, you just gain that control at higher output that often results in higher volume levels… it’s just not the definition of it. They happen to coincide very often, but working this thing forward (as I have said) will probably give you better results. You need to find speakers (good ones) that do what you want them to do. Audition (or just research) speakers that have the characteristics that you want.
You are looking for speakers that have great output at low frequencies. This is why I mentioned the specific JL audio subs that I did. When compared to other subs at their size, power-handling and cost, they have tremendous low frequency output. There are tons of these, and you can find them in 15″, 12″ and even 10″. 18’s however, are less simple. They typically exist for SPL folks… so you are only looking at insane power handling, limited application installs. Oh, and they need a fuckload of space in most cases.
Now, assuming you can find a speaker that works spectacular for this, (GO LISTEN TO THEM WITH YOUR MUSIC) you need to look at what they need to do what you want. If a speaker well supports it (and most do) a vented enclosure (ported) will yield higher overall output. But it’s important to note that lower frequencies can be found with larger sealed enclosures. And here’s where it gets interesting, and where you have to rely on many opinions, and lot of auditioning and research and some just plain luck. You find 12″ subs or 15″ subs that play well in the frequency range you want, and buy/install all that you can for your budget, space and tastes… and if low is your goal, go to the max sealed enclosure type required for those speakers. Now, you can get a LOT more sound out of many of these speakers by venting (porting or 3rd order bandpass) an enclosure, and even more at peak frequencies by going 5th order or 7th order bandpass (single or double vented with the speaker totally inside the box). For your needs, you should avoid anything other than sealed or 3rd order… in fact if you had one of those fancy off the shelf boxes for your Pioneer subs, then the reason they were weak was on all possible fronts. 1: the speakers do not have very good output characteristics 2: It’s very (VERY) likely you did this with an off-the shelf speaker box (these suck for 90% of applications) 3: your powerhandling was likely not suited for the speakers and 4: none of it was matched to your listening requirements.
Now, you’ve picked some 15″ speakers (maybe even 4… I’ve done this in a bug before), or some 12″ speakers and you are doing a big fat ass sealed box, or you are porting a box as low as you can get someone to agree to do (these ports are tuned for frequency response… did you know this already?). Make sure that at minimum the speakers are in 1 enclosure for 2 subs, but for 4 subs (and up) I’d recommend a separate sealed cavity for each driver. NOW it’s time to pick the amp or amps to drive them. You could probably do very well with a meaty Class D amp, but you may look to some of the well-rated AB’s that are out there for subs. The main thing is, look at your speaker’s RMS power handling, and buy an amp who’s recommended or normal output is about 80% of the RMS needs of your speaker. Magic dials and stuff like that do not make an amp great, they make it convenient. There are a lot of ways to achieve this same effect. I think for 4 12s or 4 15s, you may end up with 2 really stout mono amps, that you can either buy huge and drive at a 4 ohm load, or buy more common or middle of the road (power not quality) and drive them at a 2ohm load.
Speaker configuration is important here, so you have to plan this before you buy. Select the speakers, then select your amp, then refine your speakers and your amp. Mono sub amp at 2ohm load, this could be 2 12″ (or whatever) subs with a single voice coil wired parallel. It could also be 2 12″ subs with 8ohm dual voice coils, with the voice coils wired parallel (for a 4ohm load again) then wired in parallel again (speakers) for a 2ohm load. Getting tricky, you could go with 2 12″ subs with 2ohm voice coils (I don’t think these are common) wired in series (for a 4ohm load) then wired parallel to get back to 2ohm again. What you don’t want, it 2 12″ dual voice coil subs, running the common 4ohm voice coils. This is because all of your wiring scenarios equal a 4ohm load (for 2 speakers on a mono channel) or a 1ohm load, or a completely silly 16ohm load. You could do dual 4ohm on a 4ohm load amp though, you are just going to buy for bigger power (by the way, this would result in a cooler running temp. I’d say, plan for dual 4ohm voice coils, run them series then parallel, and bridge a big stereo sub amp for 4ohm mono, or buy a big 4ohm mono amp. Your charging system will thank you.
So, you do two of these amps, and you’ve got a lot going for you. You pick subs like I recommended, and you are looking for 600watts to your subs x2, and you won’t be eating batteries are alternators. In fact, you can do this with 1 extra battery, a battery isolator and likely the stock alternator if it’s healthy. You’ll still piss off all of your neighbors, rattle your car to pieces and find ways to tweak the system until the end of time.
As far as what amp goes, you’ve been doing your research here some already… just take your requirements down out of the SPL/competition stuff and look at what people are really using. Back in my day, we did all of this stuff with considerably less power, and more efficient builds. Now, people just buy for big numbers, put it on mediocre subs in a shit box, and call it done. I’ve had 1 10″ that beat my car to shit on 150watt Rockford Fosgate punch 75 (bridged) in a 7th order bandpass box, and I’ve had clean low hits off of a pair of 12″ subs on damn near on power at all (25watts x2 of RMS power). None of these were brain benders, but they do illustrate that pairing and application mean just as much as equipment selection.
If I could do this today… I’d seriously consider buying old-school. I’d go with (newer) 4 10″ JL audio W6’s, and an Orion 225 HCCA (I loved mine so much) running at 1 ohm. That bitch was 1/2 ohm stable and I ran it that way with zero problems for a long time. If I couldn’t get my hands on one, a couple of Autotek Mean Machine model 66 or model 99 would be the way to go. I still like the old power.
not to toot my own horn, but i just upgraded from this:
to this bad boy:
My essence still senses Bucho's women.
@Version3 45830 wrote:
That actually would be a move backward there Lark… punch your salesman in the cock.
i’ve been watching an educational video on how to properly execute a cockpunch. here’s a screen grab.
My essence still senses Bucho's women.
@Version3 45832 wrote:
That may be groping… the “guy” standing up really seems to like it.
damn it! so that’s TWO punches upon the cock that i must unleash on shady salesmen.
My essence still senses Bucho's women.
@Version3 45843 wrote:
Any more than that, and he’ll probably consider it a date.
damn it! you couldn’t have posted this sooner?
now i’m gay!
My essence still senses Bucho's women.
Lots of info in that post, thank you.
This install will be going into a 2007 honda accord (99% sure, but plans might change). I have been planning to sacrifice my backseat for bass (i’m a pretty big guy (6’7″), and there is no way i’m fitting someone behind me anyways in that car), so if the box takes up more space than the trunk is capable of comfortably fitting, there is a backseat to use as well.I looked into the bandpass boxes, and they look pretty difficult to design/build but they apparently have more potential for dB output. Can you tell me more about these types of boxes and if they’ll help me out in the quest for decibels? And you said 7th order bandpass, how does that sort of box work?
So, I’ll probably be going with 4 12″ JL W6 or W7 or some other well preforming subwoofer. Where would I start with the box? I couldn’t find stuff other than just calculators for boxes online, I’d rather learn how they work and how to make them. Could you suggest some sort of resource I could start looking into to get the skills to construct an enclosure proper so I wouldn’t waste any money or time building stuff that doesn’t work?
2007 Honda Accord… okay, Jerry could provide me more info here, but I think you are going to have an effect 90amp to 110amp alternator there, so let’s keep that in mind as you hone in on your needs electrically.
You can do 4 w12’s in your trunk if the box backs right up to the seat, but you’ll have no truck left to speak of… meaning if you wanted to put your backpack somewhere, you’re remaining backseat would likely be it. If you want the trunk, then yes… lose the seat. Although, this will be a weird look for a 4-door. Again, are we TOTALLY SURE that you need this much sub to accomplish all of your goals? You need to go audition some systems. Go find a competition and really look at some systems.
Okay, anyway…
For what you want to do DON’T go full bandpass. You won’t get the lows out of it easily. Sealed is the way to go. You can single port it if you want to tune it all silly low, but I’d start with well thought out sealed for your first time out. I mentioned some of the bandpass orders because of results I’d gotten with them using non-typical speakers. 7th order is tough to design, tough to build and very tough to get right. Don’t even pay attention to it. Avoid the off the shelf ones… they will NOT be designed for your speakers and will let you down (as you’ve experienced a lot already).
I think you are going with super overkill just so my $0.02 is being heard. I think you are using experience from the typical Best Buy purchase to dictate how big it has to be to measure up. I’ll probably never quit saying that to you either. Audition other systems to find out for sure what level you need to focus on. 2 12’s hitting hard and low will make your skin vibrate, and will vibrate every hair on your head -your mirrors will be unusable. 2 15’s moreso… 4 12s will be hard to find opportunities to listen to all out.
Okay, back to it (again).
Let’s get a few more descriptions out of the way (and I’ll make you some very quick pictures for them in the attachment).
Single Reflex = Base Reflex = Ported Enclosure.
This looks like a typical speaker box, but has a port (sometimes called a 3rd order enclosure, though even though I did it above, it’s not actually correct).Passive Radiator = Passive Driver
This looks like two speakers, only one isn’t hooked up… but it’s using the extra mass of the cone to more more air.4th Order Bandpass
This is a speaker in a sealed box (usually the rear of the speaker), with another box built around the other side (usually in the front) that is vented/ported. ALL SOUND comes only from this port. This allows only the frequencies you want to come out, and is usually tuned for a generic frequency with off-the-shelf designs. In most cases, the two boxes are near or exactly the same size.5th Order Bandpass
This is the same design as the 4th order, only both of the “boxes” are vented to the outside world. Sometimes this is called “dual-reflex” bandpass. Typically, they are tuned at different frequencies either via the port size/length, the cabinet size (box on either side) or both. All sound comes from only the two ports.6th Order Bandpass
This is a more complicated design, sometimes also referred to as “series tuned”. The 6th order is built with the same dual-box configuration as the two previous orders, however the “rear” chamber is not tuned to the ‘outside’ but rather ported into the front enclosure. So you’ve basically got a bass-reflex box, ported into a 4th order bandpass. All sound comes from the single port.7th Order Bandpass
Very complicated. This is a 6th order bandpass enclosure, with the additional vent present from the 5th order design. So… the rear of the enclosure is ported to atmosphere (outside) at a given frequency, then ported again at the same, or a different frequency (they affect each other by the way) to the “front” box, where we are tuning a 4th order design at another target frequency in the front. These are extremely difficult to design, and very hard to build. All sound comes from the two externally vented ports.**Extras
Isobaric: this is a configuration that has two like drivers creating a push-pull relationship, typically by mounting one driver backward, then wiring it reverse. This has conflicting support in the audio community, but does have notable merits. If drivers are well built, they make as much sound (move as much air) behind the speaker as they do in front… so it shouldn’t matter. But in bandpass configurations, this is done to make sure that the magnets are occupying equal space in each chamber. This means avoiding fancy calculations to make up for having two basket and magnet structures in one cabinet, while having zero in the other. This is a case that heavily supports isobaric configurations. “Solobaric” is a marketing term that has no relation, and it actually just a 4th order bandpass box, or other bass reflex system.
Passive Radiator: think of it as a speaker not actually doing anything. It is. The vibrations (sound) on the backside of your active driver creating matching vibrations in the passive radiator. On the “front” or listening side of the enclosure, this basically means that more surface area is vibrating more air, and typically results in some increase in output. It can also change the frequency response of the cabinet.
There are many other types, but you don’t really need to know much about them for car audio. Here is what you do need to know.
For LOUD: Bass Reflex, 4th Order, 5th Order and 6th Order
For LOW: Sealed, Bass Reflex
The others (4th and up) can be tuned for low, and you’ll get some efficiency out of those low frequencies, but unless you are going to go 5th order, or 7th order, they will not sound good at frequencies other than your tuned frequency… and just getting into this you are setting yourself up for failure.
I once had a single dual-voice-coil 8″ JBL GT (piece of mediocre crap) getting it’s ass beat with an Autotek 66A bridged mono 2ohm…. and everyone thought I had a pair of 12’s at least. It played low, hard and fit in a tiny spot in my trunk. It took me 5 tries to get that box right, and I had experience at bandpass.
Where to start: Equipment. Then look at their requirements and figure out what kind of space it’s going to take up. Look up designs for those speakers, and learn about formulas for your type of enclosure using Theil Small parameters. You will be doing math this way. You also need to be very comfortable with quality wood working. If you build weak, it will sound very weak. Ridgidity in enclosures is a must. Fiberglass reinforce, high quality MDF at 5/8″ thickness or better is the only way to go. Exact cuts, tight fits, seal the shit out of it. You won’t be sorry… the enclosure makes the driver.
You gonna do this all yourself for sure? Learn. A. Lot. Don’t just ask old fuckers like me about this stuff, I know far less than most who’ve done it longer. Read. Read. Read. Then do. Read some more. Keep it simple for your first time out, and see what you like/don’t like about it. In fact, consider 2 12″ in the model/design you want, and see what you like/dont’ like about it. You can always add 2 more, or sell them and go a different way. Easier to do when you have less in it.
Where to start. There are a lot of forums around, but those are also full of blow hard dipshits as much as they are people who know what they are talking about… and it can be hard to sift through. Don’t trust manufacturers too much either. Learn the science and the math, you’ll be glad you did. Knowledge and solid assembly will make your equipment purchases worth it, or they will make you unhappy… so don’t ignore, seriously.
If it were my direction being taken… cut through the bullshit by reading “The Book of Truth” by Dynaudio. It’s company/product propaganda, but you will learn about product bullshit, and this is important when you see the science and try to apply that to products. Just remember, you are reading this one for perspective… not so much education. You can download that one for free at their website: http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/company/download.php
The next read is an important one… it’s about enclosure design, speaker parameters and what you need to know. “The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook” by Vance Dickason. This is THE book to read for what you want to know/learn to do. http://www.amazon.com/Loudspeaker-Design-Cookbook-Vance-Dickason/dp/1882580109/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295168496&sr=1-7
Two others that I still own (and have math equations jotted down in) are http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Loudspeaker-Design-John-Murphy/dp/096637732X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295168496&sr=1-4 and this one as well (which I liked better) http://www.amazon.com/Great-Sound-Stereo-Speaker-Manual/dp/0830632743/ref=pd_sim_b_23
Start with reading. When you get one or more of the books read (you’ll read old tech stuff in there too BTW), THEN start asking people questions about equipment. Don’t believe all of the bullshit hype about feature this, design that. The TS parameters don’t lie, and will get you more than 80% of the way through good cabinet design. The rest you can find out with proven reputation and real known facts. There is little to no evidence that supports Kevlar coated cones to be really any better than other materials (including quality heavy paper cones), so unless you are putting 2,000 watts to a speaker, ignore this shit. You’ll learn a lot from the books.
There you go!
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