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Rob's Mini-Show – 20160416

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Rob's Mini-Show – 20160416

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This topic contains 35 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by Octavious Octavious 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)
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  • #64279
    rob
    rob
    Participant

    And here’s another example of someone who hasn’t progressed – Roland Emmerich. I’d love to say that I’m excited about the new ID4, but MAN, it’s going to be dumb. And all of his movies just have this overall dumb thing going on.

    And maybe that’s what it comes down to – a dumb thing here, a dumb thing there, it’s not so bad. It’s when there’s just this overall “I feel dumb for watching this” kind of feeling…

    #64280
    Bucho
    Bucho
    Participant

    Haha, yeah, that’s why I keep hammering the “I haven’t seen shit from him in a decade” thing, because I have to admit I’m way out of step with where Bay’s at now. There’s that bittersweet irony that I liked Transformers much more than you but never watched the sequels, whereas you put yourself through that hell again three more times. That’s part of why you were always more cut out for movie reviewing than me. You’re dedicated as fuck.

    It also shows it’s just goofy for me to “defend” Bay, since not only do I think he’s at least some level of twatnipple, I don’t respect his filmmaking ability enough even to have checked out Pain and Gain or 13 Hours, neither of which were heralded as any kind of genius, but both which seemed like interesting ideas. I probably wouldn’t ever even think about him much at all if it wasn’t so fun to hear you spit your disdain for him, and, in particular, for Transformers.

    Where it’s interesting is getting at why you hate Bay while also loving JJ, because I feel a lot of the barbs that could be hurled at Bay as a filmmaker could also be hurled at JJ. The one that can’t is that there are zero stories around about JJ being a cunt, but many about Bay being one. In fact only last week a critic wrote that he’d heard bad behind-the-scenes stories about EVERY major director in Hollywood, EXCEPT JJ Abrams. He’s definitely an easy guy to root for.

    (That said, I didn’t really have a problem with the factor of Han being able to hyperjump the shields in and of iteslf. As a storytelling “cheat” it’s far from the smartest piece of writing ever, but it’s not changing the physical rules of the universe, it’s just a tech vs tech thing. The problem is that solution only raises the question of why the X-wings didn’t also jump in (and out afterwards), since they’re not only also hyperdrive-equipped, they’re more maneuverable than a big old freighter like the Falcon and are lead by Poe Dameron, a pilot so incredible the movie literally has a main character stop in the middle of a battlefield to watch Poe perform piloting feats which make every other pilot not just in Star Wars but in every movie ever in the history of movies look like they’ve never held a joystick in their lives. If Han in the Falcon could do it, Poe and his merry band of X-wings could do it while sleeping.

    But noooooooooo, JJ and Kasdan had their hearts set on Han being on a ground mission to take some shields down, because heaven forbid we get to see one of the greatest heroes in motion picture history on some new, original and exciting adventure which isn’t ripped directly from the OT.)

    - Women sense my power and they seek the life essence.

    #64282
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    And as far as I can tell it doesn’t really even really seem really like you and I really disagree on Bay. I say Bay makes dumb movies from base intincts and so do you. You say Bay can make films and so did I. We both think he’s a cockfacesupreme but that he has chops. JJ is kind of lovable, because he’s much closer to our kind of nerd, but he’s frequently proved to be a sloppier cinematic storyteller than Bay, or at least than the Bay I know of a decade plus ago.

    NO, NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Bucho!

    😀

    Okay, a few things that my pun totally fucked up in my previous response I’m going to treat as housecleaning to go back to my original point if I even had one. The “Forces at work” thing was not actually about the truths contained in either movie, it was about the way suspension of disbelief affects a movie going audience and how that can amplify what we know and don’t know about a galaxy far far away vs our own solar system. People can get behind the pseudo-science of a film set in a universe where they can label and comprehend all of the forces at work: magnetic fields, gravity, daddy issues and so on. But when you deal with the ambiguity of something not familiar, we tend to try to apply our own patterns to it. The fact that a nuance or attribute of a completely different force in the universe hasn’t been outlined, nor have the subtleties of anyone’s actual relationship with it leads to us trying behave like we have a relative solid grasp on it as if it’s gravity… when it’s completely foreign to us, even if we grew up with it in film “The Force”. And so, my not very apparent thought led to you to say some things that while I will forgive you for, made me really want to get the three of us on the phone and record some shit so I can get all worked up and loud about everything, because…

    in fact it’s established in the first film when Obi Wan feels the destruction of Alderaan rather than seeing it

    uh, not a fact… it’s an observation. And it’s probably accurate, but it is of HIS ability and under those circumstances. We don’t know about the force, other than how it’s been represented. Now that doesn’t make some things any less “silly” but it does make it hard to say what is right or wrong with new things we are shown in that universe. It’s funny though, I’m going to not agree with your assessment of what is/isn’t possible within the SW universe based on this, but it will illustrate that I can easily agree with you on JJ’s choices: no matter his intent, if it’s this polarizing for an audience, he either doesn’t understand the material, or couldn’t convey his intent properly. So yeah, point on the overall theme, but since I accidentally sent you down the SW specific path I had another thing or two that I wanted to say about this.

    The reason Force types can manipulate regular stuff with the Force isn’t that the physical rules are different, it’s that they’re creatures who’ve learned to manipulate the regular forces of that universe. Yoda doesn’t lift an X-Wing with his mind because gravity works differently, he lifts an X-wing with his mind because his mind works differently.

    Can’t say I agree with this either, and it’s related to why I said what I said before. It’s like you are looking at the 5th dimension and trying to put it in 3rd dimensional terms. The reason force manipulators can manipulate regular stuff with the Force is that it exists. The reason you can move an object on your desk is because there is gravity, and kenetic energy and your muscles give you the ability to use one to overcome another, but then use the benefits of the other to measure your use of the first to get the desired outcome. It’s because they are creatures that have learned to use whatever intangible “thing” allows them to interact with the force in different ways to exert that force on the regular stuff. It’s not that Yoda’s mind works differently on an existing force (gravity) it’s that he perceives and can act in concert with, or otherwise affect this new force to overcome the gravity and use the continuing act of gravity to create a measured use of the Force to act on “regular stuff” or the X-wing to get the desired outcome.

    We aren’t arguing Superman’s power of flight in our universe here, we are talking about a completely new element of the physics of that universe that allows a force that either doesn’t exist here, or we can’t identify to act in the same way we use thermal, magnetic or kenetic energy to interact with the laws and properties of the other matter and forces at work. So that said, can you imagine if people said Scientists are weak at understanding our universe because they postulate string theory? Okay, dense people might… but you couldn’t take that as gospel. Because what they are really doing is beginning to understand a new aspect of this thing that we may or may not have comprehended on our own, or through our comprehension of another force or property at work in our universe.

    And that sort of leads back to my point. I’m fine with introducing new aspects of the Force, and I’m fine with someone picking up a lightsaber being able to hold their own with someone who is supposed to already be really good with the force. Because maybe Kylo is just a shitty saber fighter. It’s like arguing that balance and strength have to go hand and hand just for people to be good at either. They can be varying degrees of good at these are any number of skills or abilities that enable to them to perceive or act on the forces in our universe without messing up our understanding of this universe. Introducing some new measure or skill doesn’t necessarily break the existence of those forces or properties either (speed, suction) nor does introductions of new force (centrifugal force for example).

    This is a long way of getting to say that the OT did not define the Force, it’s limitations abilities or scope, nor did it define anyone’s abilities within it. It introduced us to it, and surfaced the skills necessary to support the plot, the actions and motivations of it’s characters. But in expanding the scope of something like the Force, I only get mad if the break or nullify the fictional universe they are creating, not expand it.

    So, yes I hate the light speed at a planet thing… it’s dumb. But it wasn’t surrounded by dumb on all sides like Bay’s Transformer balls, so I’m not going to use it as an example of why the film sucks, or the director for that matter. But in the case of Bay, I think it makes the point in a nice neat little package when it’s pointed out that way.

    Bay can make films. He may have the chops to be a decent or even good filmmaker, but he can’t make enough good decisions to save himself from himself, and I’m sorry core attributes do not a whole person make. He’s a product of the whole coked up 13 year old made this look and feel he goes for, just as much as he is for the nearly solid building blocks he may use to set something up. And the whole package sticks of dirty whores and blown out nose cartilage.

    And I just don’t find JJ to be that polarizing.

    I think the sloppy is there, and I won’t deny it. But it’s usually plot point, or scene specific… I can’t think of a time when it extends to the entire product of the film. So, it doesn’t annoy me.

    Okay, now after pretending to be a know-it-all of some sort here, maybe I just need to watch TFA again because… what the hell are we talking about with the “seeing” the destruction vs feeling it? Are we talking about StarKiller base blowing up those planets? Am I missing something that I should be able to recall here?

    #64283
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    By the way… DO watch Pain and Gain. I enjoyed it. His style is there and all of the “Bay” things, but the characters are so damn stupid that all of these things about Wahlberg and Bay that we like to complain about manifest in ways that are just idiotically fun to watch. I laughed my butt off at that silly movie, and have watched it a few times since the first.

    #64284
    rob
    rob
    Participant

    Holy crap I hated that movie. I almost turned it off. I guess the combo of Bay and Wahlberg is just too much.

    #64285
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    I wrote like a goofy crazy person. I should quit doing that while in work meetings.

    That movie watched a lot like parody. Maybe that’s why I was able to get over it.

    #64286
    Bucho
    Bucho
    Participant

    Okay, a few things that my pun totally fucked up in my previous response I’m going to treat as housecleaning to go back to my original point if I even had one. The “Forces at work” thing was not actually about the truths contained in either movie, it was about the way suspension of disbelief affects a movie going audience and how that can amplify what we know and don’t know about a galaxy far far away vs our own solar system. People can get behind the pseudo-science of a film set in a universe where they can label and comprehend all of the forces at work: magnetic fields, gravity, daddy issues and so on. But when you deal with the ambiguity of something not familiar, we tend to try to apply our own patterns to it. The fact that a nuance or attribute of a completely different force in the universe hasn’t been outlined, nor have the subtleties of anyone’s actual relationship with it leads to us trying behave like we have a relative solid grasp on it as if it’s gravity… when it’s completely foreign to us, even if we grew up with it in film “The Force”. And so, my not very apparent thought led to you to say some things that while I will forgive you for, made me really want to get the three of us on the phone and record some shit so I can get all worked up and loud about everything, because…

    If I’m reading you right this is pretty much, “What if the reason the crowd at Maz’s can see light across light years instantaneously is the mysteries of The Force?” But these films are never ambiguous about how The Force works. Any time it’s at play some character tells us what’s going on, be it tricks on the will or tricks on matter. Any new wrinkles would be dealt with the same way by any storyteller as concerned with stylistic continuities as JJ is, so I can’t really run with the idea that the explanation for the odd behaviour of light in this movie would be the “mysterious” ways of The Force. Because it’s never really that mysterious.

    Then again, this is Mystery Box McGillicuddy we’re talking about here, so who knows?

    uh, not a fact… it’s an observation. And it’s probably accurate, but it is of HIS ability and under those circumstances. We don’t know about the force, other than how it’s been represented. Now that doesn’t make some things any less “silly” but it does make it hard to say what is right or wrong with new things we are shown in that universe. It’s funny though, I’m going to not agree with your assessment of what is/isn’t possible within the SW universe based on this, but it will illustrate that I can easily agree with you on JJ’s choices: no matter his intent, if it’s this polarizing for an audience, he either doesn’t understand the material, or couldn’t convey his intent properly. So yeah, point on the overall theme, but since I accidentally sent you down the SW specific path I had another thing or two that I wanted to say about this.

    It’s that old storytelling thing about setting up your world in the first act I guess. It’s just shithouse storytelling to change the rules in the third act. Everything we’ve seen in 6 movies tells us that if the Force is going to have an influence on proceedings, then that’s due to it being directed by someone, and we see that someone doing the directing. And that’s not the case in the situation we’re yapping about, so I don’t know why audiences should be expected to assume it.

    I don’t even think JJ and Kasdan expected audiences to think that much about it. Kasdan was quoted as saying something like that – that they don’t expect audiences to question too much (or words to that effect), and I think as far as JJ was concerned he just thought it would look cool. The script was so hacked together (and then hacked apart again in the edit/reshoots) I’m not sure they spent a lot of time and energy on this kind of thinking.

    Can’t say I agree with this either, and it’s related to why I said what I said before. It’s like you are looking at the 5th dimension and trying to put it in 3rd dimensional terms. The reason force manipulators can manipulate regular stuff with the Force is that it exists. The reason you can move an object on your desk is because there is gravity, and kenetic energy and your muscles give you the ability to use one to overcome another, but then use the benefits of the other to measure your use of the first to get the desired outcome. It’s because they are creatures that have learned to use whatever intangible “thing” allows them to interact with the force in different ways to exert that force on the regular stuff. It’s not that Yoda’s mind works differently on an existing force (gravity) it’s that he perceives and can act in concert with, or otherwise affect this new force to overcome the gravity and use the continuing act of gravity to create a measured use of the Force to act on “regular stuff” or the X-wing to get the desired outcome.

    I’m with you on this, and I explained my point of view really poorly in the post you’re replying to. In that paragraph when I talk about Yoda perceiving the universe differently because his mind works differently, I meant that for Force users things work differently, but that several (probably all) folks at Maz’s are not Force users, so it makes no sense they would perceive light behaving differently.

    That might not make any more sense, but at least it’s more words.

    Meanwhile, I’m going to have to get to the rest later, I have to go take my niece and nephews to see Jungle Book now, but I definitely will get to it later, because this is fun as heck. I’ve said a bunch of times you’re one of my favourites to get Star Wars opinions from Captain, so this is all aces as far as I’m concerned

    - Women sense my power and they seek the life essence.

    #64287
    rob
    rob
    Participant

    Well, I think science can be thrown out the window when it comes to Star Wars. I mean, the below tweet from Pablo Hidalgo kind of puts it in perspective for me.

    #64288
    Bucho
    Bucho
    Participant

    Sure, but I’m not being a crybaby about about the science per se, I’m being a crybaby about the story-telling. If we were worried about the science we’d have poo-pooed the whole dealio decades ago when we saw gravity in action on small spaceships and written the whole thing off. That’s why the fact Han hyperjumps the shields doesn’t bug me, but the fact the X-wings don’t does. The former is just a sci-fi hypertech solution to a sci-fi hypertech problem but the latter makes no narrative sense. It just makes the heroes seem dumb.

    - Women sense my power and they seek the life essence.

    #64289
    Bucho
    Bucho
    Participant

    We aren’t arguing Superman’s power of flight in our universe here, we are talking about a completely new element of the physics of that universe that allows a force that either doesn’t exist here, or we can’t identify to act in the same way we use thermal, magnetic or kenetic energy to interact with the laws and properties of the other matter and forces at work. So that said, can you imagine if people said Scientists are weak at understanding our universe because they postulate string theory? Okay, dense people might… but you couldn’t take that as gospel. Because what they are really doing is beginning to understand a new aspect of this thing that we may or may not have comprehended on our own, or through our comprehension of another force or property at work in our universe.

    And that sort of leads back to my point. I’m fine with introducing new aspects of the Force, and I’m fine with someone picking up a lightsaber being able to hold their own with someone who is supposed to already be really good with the force. Because maybe Kylo is just a shitty saber fighter. It’s like arguing that balance and strength have to go hand and hand just for people to be good at either. They can be varying degrees of good at these are any number of skills or abilities that enable to them to perceive or act on the forces in our universe without messing up our understanding of this universe. Introducing some new measure or skill doesn’t necessarily break the existence of those forces or properties either (speed, suction) nor does introductions of new force (centrifugal force for example).

    This is a long way of getting to say that the OT did not define the Force, it’s limitations abilities or scope, nor did it define anyone’s abilities within it. It introduced us to it, and surfaced the skills necessary to support the plot, the actions and motivations of it’s characters. But in expanding the scope of something like the Force, I only get mad if the break or nullify the fictional universe they are creating, not expand it.

    It’s established that The Force is an energy field generated by all living things. Unless Obi Wan and Yoda were lying to us of course – entirely possible as both were known to play loose with the truth. As far as I can tell the previous films have established that the Galaxy Far, Far Away behaves just like ours unless a Force user is manipulating business, and when a Force user manipulates business it’s laid out in plain sight for the audience, not left as some secret, mysterious, unexplained effect. I don’t remember any scene in which The Force is an active element in and of itself. Unless a Force user is tapping in or engaging with it it has no effect on non-Force users.

    So in storytelling terms this Starkiller beam thing is kind of in a roundabout way a version of that old thing about establishing the “rules” in the first act and not breaking them in the third. If for six films we’d been seeing characters witness things across light years instantaneously due to the Force nobody would have batted an eye seeing it in the seventh. As it was though, it just played as confusing and/or goofy. And, from an artistic perspective, as the least interesting/creative/imaginative/wondrous way to portray that event. Everything about the scene as seen from Maz’s just flat-out looks silly. I mean bad silly, not good silly like when the Rancor keeper breaks down crying.

    Bay can make films. He may have the chops to be a decent or even good filmmaker, but he can’t make enough good decisions to save himself from himself, and I’m sorry core attributes do not a whole person make. He’s a product of the whole coked up 13 year old made this look and feel he goes for, just as much as he is for the nearly solid building blocks he may use to set something up. And the whole package sticks of dirty whores and blown out nose cartilage.

    Well shit, now we’re just going to agree again, and that’s no fun for anyone.

    Okay, now after pretending to be a know-it-all of some sort here, maybe I just need to watch TFA again because… what the hell are we talking about with the “seeing” the destruction vs feeling it? Are we talking about StarKiller base blowing up those planets? Am I missing something that I should be able to recall here?

    I just meant to compare the Starkiller beam scene with the scene it’s RIPPED OFF from, the Alderaan scene. In the original it’s dramatized by having Leia witness it with her eyeballs up close and personal and Obi Wan witness it from intergalactic distance through the Force, but in the RIP OFF it’s dramatized by having the gang at Maz’s witness it with their eyeballs from from intergalactic distances with zero use of the Force. One is elegant, classic cinematic storytelling and the other is dumbing shit down as much as possible for the Walmart crowd.

    This all comes across like I despise TFA and hate JJ of course, and I don’t. Even as non-original as it is I like TFA overall and think JJ has a good heart and is a non-hack, but I can’t ignore that there are these dumbed down aspects of the film and be disappointed that JJ didn’t do better with it.

    All in all though, to bring it full circle, it’s probably true that I exaggerated in saying JJ’s films were as dumb as Bay’s. In terms of skill I think Bay might be better, or at least he was once upon a time, but his products are about as base as they can be while still being considered “family” entertainment. I can’t say I’ve ever seen anything approaching genius in any of JJ’s films, but at least they’re pitched above where Bay’s are/were.

    - Women sense my power and they seek the life essence.

    #64290
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    If I’m reading you right this is pretty much, “What if the reason the crowd at Maz’s can see light across light years instantaneously is the mysteries of The Force?”

    Uh, nope but I didn’t dig into it far because I wasn’t really sure we were talking about the same thing. I actually got the sense that these planets were in the same system. Habitable moons (like Yavin 4 or whatever) and they were actually seeing with their eyes, not the force. My comments around the mysteries of the Force were more ambiguous against using what we say in the OT as a ruleset for all things force. Because if the Force were fully defined by the OT, most nerdy teenage boys could beat Obi-Wan or Vader in a saber fight. But back to the sensing galaxies away vs seeing planets nearby blowing up in the sky above….

    Keep in mind two things: 1) this giant blowing up of planets was co-ordinated by the landing of ground troops after placing a call that the fugitives were there. Interspace travel at faster-than-light-speed is fast and all, but the approach and arrangement of troops and small fighters to mount an attack says to me that they weren’t really that far away. A little hyper-jump for the attack, and a giant plasma cannon of hurt blasting across the sky. The only think I’d argue here is that the speed of the beam isn’t consistent with being able to see it streaking across the sky unless we want to adopt the “laser” model of visibility… I just marked that one up to necessary theatrics, but I didn’t get the sense that these planets are in another system lightyears away. And that difference makes a HUGE difference in how one could view this scene and it’s implications of the Force.

    #64291
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    Sure, but I’m not being a crybaby about about the science per se, I’m being a crybaby about the story-telling. If we were worried about the science we’d have poo-pooed the whole dealio decades ago when we saw gravity in action on small spaceships and written the whole thing off. That’s why the fact Han hyperjumps the shields doesn’t bug me, but the fact the X-wings don’t does. The former is just a sci-fi hypertech solution to a sci-fi hypertech problem but the latter makes no narrative sense. It just makes the heroes seem dumb.

    I think the hyperspace toward the planet through the shields then stop is dumb, but not show-stopper dumb. Just yeah… they really should have fixed that.

    In general, there is a lot of setup in the OT about the MF being a very special ship… after all it’s just a stupid small freighter with a design that’s actually kinda stupid for the usage. But with a lot of “special modifications” and a guy who knows it as well as he knows himself, I just wrote it off as being possible enough (over the abilities of the standard X-wings) because this guy is driving a souped up family car, that’s a track car under the skin… and he’s not the best driver out there, but this guy in this car is a combination that’s hard to beat. You know, me and my analogies.

    #64292
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    Well, I think science can be thrown out the window when it comes to Star Wars. I mean, the below tweet from Pablo Hidalgo kind of puts it in perspective for me.

    You just stop that mister.

    #64293
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    There are other things in here that I wanted to respond to at some point, but for now…

    I just rematched rewatched that scene. I think they are destroying planets/moons in the system of the planet Moz’s place is on. Even if they are in a system ‘next door’, destruction of that size and light/energy of that intensity would be visible if that were the case. It’s not like Moz’s place is an outer rim planet.

    Right after this huge distraction, Han goes inside and Moz is still relatively close to where Rey left her. Rey hasn’t gotten all that far running out either. That tells me that this is minutes… like what, 10? later. If that’s the case, seems like Kylo Ren would have been on the bridge of either his ship hiding near the target planet, or a larger cruiser and his shuttle deployed from there. Either way, this would make a ground assault on the target planet/moon easier, after the “shock and awe” of blowing up entire planets and moons nearby. Fear us, we are coming to find the last piece of the map.

    So no Force involved seeing what happened from the way I watched this.

    But it actually goes back to the same problem JJ has in the hug scene… if he was thinking one thing, and it’s not apparent on camera, then he has a problem with scene composition, editing and where he is including things in frame that make things worse (shoot with Chewie either farther away or more apparently trying to take care of Finn) or include a shot that makes it apparent that he’s unavailable for interacting with Leia. I get his intent, but it’s just not there. Maybe this planet destruction sequence has the exact same problem. No visual representation as to where we are in relation to the planets/moons destroyed, and no exposition provided “oh my god, they’ve destroyed every planet in the system… their coming!” and this would be fixed. He could use a heavy dose of watching his edits with his audience in mind more than his intent. And a lot of directors have this problem.

    #64294
    Version3
    Version3
    Keymaster

    Did I fart? Where’d you guys go?

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